Curse

mrmango · Sep 29, 2007, 09:17 PM // 21:17

I wonder if Primordius' kind of undead is different from the Cataclysm undead and the Elonian undead? 3 factions of undead?!

doinchi · Sep 30, 2007, 02:37 AM // 02:37

They keep telling us "Not to trust the past" which seems to me like a way to do a retcon on the original guild wars lore. When they wrote the original lore, they had no idea there was going to be a guildwars 2. So, I'm sure they would have to change the lore. This seems like their way of doing it.

Or am I pages behind everyone else? :|

The Shelf · Sep 30, 2007, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by doinchi

They keep telling us "Not to trust the past" which seems to me like a way to do a retcon on the original guild wars lore. When they wrote the original lore, they had no idea there was going to be a guildwars 2. So, I'm sure they would have to change the lore. This seems like their way of doing it.

Or am I pages behind everyone else? :|

Sure, it gives them an excuse to do retcons if they want to, but from what we've seen, it doesn't sound like they're doing any retcons.

People keep complaining about Glint's origin being in conflict with the new dragon story, but it's not at all. According to the wiki, Glint was the first creature placed on Tyria by the gods. It does not say that she was the first being ever created. For that matter, we don't even know if the new dragons are meant to have a creator -- they may be a type of god themselves for all we know, and even if they are not gods, there's no reason to believe they arrived in Tyria before Glint. The simple fact is that we just don't know enough of the story yet.

Also, I've heard people complain that there's no way Glint or Kuunavang should have a connection to the dragons, but this is permissible as well because the gods may have taken a scale or something from the old dragons and used it to create Glint and Kuunavang.

So the dragons are one complaint of retcons that have no real basis. Another is the arrival of the Norn and Asurans. This has no real basis either because Asurans lived underground until the Destroyer chased them out, and the Norn lived in the far north where no humans lived (until the Ebon Vanguard). The Norn and Asurans would have been only myths and legends in Tyrian lore, so there is no reason why players would/should have heard about them before GW:EN.

ANet was wise in putting that quote about not trusting one's own memories in their lore because it gives them a little more freedom in their storytelling if they need it, but it doesn't necessarily mean there will be retcons in GW2.

draxynnic · Oct 01, 2007, 01:50 PM // 13:50

Well, I can think of one disparity between memory and reality: Everybody remembers taking part in every significant event in groups of no larger than eight, while some people have more PvE characters than that in their accounts. So either it really was only a small number of characters, or the various missions actually involved huge armies of PCs clashing with similarly huge armies of bad guys and each mission is basically "if your squad can deal with X numbers of foes, you've done your part for that battle and we'll ignore the thousands of others fighting beside you and their allotment of foes..."

I suspect it might be the latter.

Aubis · Oct 01, 2007, 08:53 PM // 20:53

I wonder how many evil anicent dragons are running free

Free Runner · Oct 01, 2007, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Well we have Primordus in the Depths of Tyria (Coincidently woke up near Dragons Gullet), the "Water Dragon" in the Charr Homelands, "Drakkar"(Dragon of ice and Snow) in the Northen Shiverpeaks, the "Undeads Dragon" under Orr and a Deep Sea Dragon possibly somewere under the Sea of Sorrows.

So thats 5 known Ancient Dragons. The Dragon in the Crystal Desert could be the same one from the Charr Homelands that flew south or an entirly different Dragon.

There could be Dragons in Cantha and Elona but i doubt it. Areas for a Dragon to sleep in Cantha would probably be Echovald Forest and the Jade Sea, which both have been petrified (Unless the Dragon could resist it).

Elona just doesnt seem to be a place for a Dragon to be hiding but if there was one i would presume it to be somewere in the Desolation or Vabbi (But the Order of Whispers that are managing to get info to Tyria would of surely mentioned this)

blue.rellik · Oct 02, 2007, 02:53 AM // 02:53

Imagine a wurm dragon

arsie · Oct 02, 2007, 05:50 AM // 05:50

Isn't the name of Primordus already the big clue? It's derived from Primordial, which means

a) first created or developed
b) existing in or persisting from the beginning (as of a solar system or universe)
c) earliest formed in the growth of an individual or organ

Primordus' name might allude to it being been in the world since the beginning, among the first creatures in the world, or perhaps simply just the first dragon.

Perhaps all dragons (including Glint and Kunaanveg) were descended from Primordus, possibly even all life in the world.

The thing about something so large is that they need not be evil to make life horrible for everyone else. They are huge, and would require a lot of space and resources. So by simply living, they roll over and crush everyone else. Who rightly feel that they are evil.

Glint and Kunaaveg could just be so small that their requirements are lower than their value, so they are tolerated and loved by the humans. If they get too big, their best interests might never coincide with human's best interests.

Apparently our current Gods might all have been humans or human-like before their "Ascension" to be Gods, like Kormir. They might well just be the latest generation of Gods, the generation where humans have been around.

Creatures like Primordus might just be used to Gods coming and going.

Pliskin MacReady · Oct 02, 2007, 06:49 AM // 06:49

This is an RPG. A huge dragon, let alone one that causes life altering conditions across the globe, is necessarily evil.

But then again, if we add the Prophecies clause to the game, we will be betrayed and misled for 90% of the storyline and end up causing more destruction than if we had simply remained in the starting area by the time it is all over. So who knows for sure, but it seems likely that the dragons will be the Big Bads of GW2 at the start. That one threat that will find Charr and Humans fighting side by side and the Norn actually forming armies.

World peace is not attainable with diplomacy or equality, but with huge friggin' dragons.

Hopefully they'll be as big (or bigger) as they appear in GW:EN. The Drakkar Lake dragon (possibly the Shiverpeaks Dragon) is pretty big, but if that that thing in the between Grothmar Wardowns and Dalada Uplands is just part of the Charr (or Desert) dragon, then I expect some pretty epic fights.

Free Runner · Oct 02, 2007, 09:23 AM // 09:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by "Dragons" from The Movement of the World

The cycle of their awakening reaches back to the time of the giganticus lupicus, and even further, back into prehistory. The only thing known about these monsters is that they have no pity, no curiosity—no concern at all for the other races of the world. Their only goal seems to be to dominate, to control, and to destroy.

I dont know about you guys but my characters will be viewing them as evil.

Vanessa Dwager · Oct 03, 2007, 03:34 AM // 03:34

Calm down People! Reading through 10 pages of thoughts made me have thoughts of my own and somehow it all connects. Allright, so theres three lands right? Tyria, Cantha, Elona. Characters have come from all of these lands and I can only believe that the characters return home after EotN. Heres what I think.

Tyrian Descendent's:
If your character was originally Tyrian you'll start out near LA considering it's the only human area thats stable. Norn characters probably start in the southern Shiverpeaks. Charr in the Iron Citadel somewhere in ascalon. Asura near Rata Sum. Slyvari will probably be in the deep jungle, considering the flood wipes out the coastline. I'm not sure how HoM ties in with the non humans.

Cantha Descendent's:
You'll start out somewhere in Cantha, presumably near KC. Depending if you have a Kurzick/Luxon title is what your heritage will be. Kurzick/luxons won't be totally destroyed, just defeated. So you'll probably see them around, just not running around their own lands. Theres a chance Tengu are kept around by the emperor, since they showed they are more than mindless beasts.

Elona Descendent's
You'll start out in one of the major cities as one of the oppressed humans that want to change the world and set your people free from the Undead Pharaoh like overlord (Now that I think about it this is a lot like the Egypt part in the bible.)

How the titles may carry over: Now these are just thoughts, and only really work for human characters that descend from the GW1 people.

Protector/Guardian/Vanquisher of Tyria, Cantha, Elona:
Key NPC's remember your descendants as being helpful to their descendants and in turn decide to ask for your help and/or help you.

Cartographer of Tyria, Cantha, Elona:
You know where hidden secrets lie in the land or you know your way around the land better.

Skill Hunter or Tyria, Cantha, Elona:
Your cap sigs cost % less or you might be granted some skills your ancestor capped.

Thats just a few thoughts.

Diva Signet · Oct 03, 2007, 03:51 AM // 03:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etta

The future is bright indeed. Are here I am thinking, save the mesmer, save the world.

I lol'd.

I'm disappointed with how they've done it. It's almost like they wanted to tie it to GW1, but really didn't want to put that much work into it.

draxynnic · Oct 03, 2007, 05:41 AM // 05:41

Actually, Vanessa, the impression I've had is that all human descendants end up in Kryta one way or another, whether as (descendants of - their families will have been there for about two centuries after all) refugees of the fall of Ascalon, the regime in Cantha or Palawa Joko's regime.

Basically, all human characters (at least at the time of the initial release) will start in Kryta, it's just that those inheriting from Canthan or Elonian characters will have a Canthan or Elonian in their family history (I say 'in the family history', because it could be passed on through something like the original heroes' family dying off and bequeathing their inheritance to a favoured student or something like that somewhere in the line - which explains, for instance, how nonhumans can inherit from humans)

sindex · Oct 04, 2007, 05:54 AM // 05:54

I have to ask what will be the intelligence level of these dragons. Will they hold more knowledge then Glint and Kuunvang, since they have been around longer? I always find it more appealing to have a much more intellectual adversary then to a dead drone which is hell bent on just destroying stuff (*cough* Great Destroyer). Character development would be nice in GW 2 not just for heroes, but for the villains as well.

Actually I would really like to see the Dragons or other villain(s) to offer the main PC (playable character) a proposition. Telling the PC that everything that was prevailed to their ancestors caused more damage to Tyria, then it did to heal it. It would be easier if they let things be re-written instead of the PC to be puppets to their supposed beloved gods. Why should the PC be the puppet when you could become the master of their domain?

Also it would be great if your alliances eventually lead to a full blown war that would include new and old allies. I am a sucker for epic battles. It would be amazing to see Glint’s children, Kuunvang’s decedents, Kormir (Goddess of Truth) and others help you defeat these nemesis. For instance Glint’s children are able to crystallize certain part of the ancient dragon’s body. So it can’t use its special ability against you and your team. While Kormir could use a “Spear of Light” that literally flings enemies backwards and immobilize others.

However most of all I would really love some deeper lore, to some of the things that was left unanswered in the first Guild Wars trilogy. Even to the extent of who were the God’s before they became all powerful beings. Were they heroes just like the PC who tried to vanquish old enemies; only find one destiny that would ensue in their everlasting victory?

arsie · Oct 04, 2007, 06:12 AM // 06:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanessa Dwager

Cantha Descendent's:
You'll start out somewhere in Cantha, presumably near KC. Depending if you have a Kurzick/Luxon title is what your heritage will be. Kurzick/luxons won't be totally destroyed, just defeated. So you'll probably see them around, just not running around their own lands. Theres a chance Tengu are kept around by the emperor, since they showed they are more than mindless beasts.

Elona Descendent's
You'll start out in one of the major cities as one of the oppressed humans that want to change the world and set your people free from the Undead Pharaoh like overlord (Now that I think about it this is a lot like the Egypt part in the bible.)

I think it'll be cool if the Kurzicks and Luxons start deep in their own territory, in Rhea's Crater and that other Kurzick place in the south. And have to start questing to make contact with each other to start the rebellion.

For Elona, I reckon a hidden cave like Sunspear Sanctuary or Moddok's Crevice would be a good starting point for refugee Sunspears to plan their fight-back. Or maybe they'd have to throw their lot in with the Corsairs for mutual survival, and start in Barberous Coast. Would be nice to be able to play a Corsair.

arsie · Oct 04, 2007, 06:13 AM // 06:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by sindex

I have to ask what will be the intelligence level of these dragons. Will they hold more knowledge then Glint and Kuunvang, since they have been around longer?

They'll know a lot about the old days, but nothing about new technology like mobile phones and computers.

sindex · Oct 04, 2007, 06:25 AM // 06:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by arsie

They'll know a lot about the old days, but nothing about new technology like mobile phones and computers.

So that probably means a weakness that can be exploited against them. Since they probably don’t know about power or magical ramifications of these beings living on Tyria now; this could play into their own demise. Seeing as it’s easy to assume that when the gods gave out their power to the creatures of Tyria, was after the dragons went into hibernation. The combination of the right amount of power could be their undoing; especially if most of the races ally together against them.

draxynnic · Oct 04, 2007, 08:05 AM // 08:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by sindex

However most of all I would really love some deeper lore, to some of the things that was left unanswered in the first Guild Wars trilogy. Even to the extent of who were the God’s before they became all powerful beings. Were they heroes just like the PC who tried to vanquish old enemies; only find one destiny that would ensue in their everlasting victory?

My theory is that Dwayna and Melandru are the originals. Partly because they have the most fundamental domains (Melandru has domain over the earth, Dwayna over everything above the earth - while the others essentially just cover what's in between...) and partly because each is being depicted as wings, which I see in this case as signifying the "original" deific form (while Dwayna's wings clearly have a connection to her area of responsibility, Melandru's do not).

Finally, of those deities whose predecessors aren't actually known (the above, Balthazar, Lyssa), I don't know of any occasions where Dwayna or Melandru are listed as having family, apart from the general 'we are all Dwayna/Melandru's children'-like statements. Balthazar, on the other hand, has Menzies (who, by this theory, presumably found some way to semi-ascend himself - possibly the two started off by fighting over the power of the last war god and Balthazar got the majority, but Menzies got enough to achieve immortality and the ability to gather his own servants), while Lyssa is actually a pair of twin sisters, a state of affairs that may have arisen from a pair of mortals deciding to share the power of their predecessor and jointly assume the responsibilities of deityhood.

It's not, however, necassarily the case that Balthazar and Lyssa (and possibly Abaddon) took their places by throwing down their predecesors - they may have simply been at the right time at the right place when their predecessor was brought low by another, possibly one of the primordial dragons. (Come to think on it, the dragons may be why Abaddon was so angry about mortal magic being nerfed - he may have seen that as a weakening of mortals' ability to fight the dragons and seen ability to fight dragons later as more important than peace now.

Steps_Descending · Oct 05, 2007, 02:06 AM // 02:06

WARNING : Don't hear an offensive tone in my reply, it's rather amused and laughing. Sorry you made me smile.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eldin

I basically want:

-Ascalon to be rebuilt
-The races to stop being gay and not trusting one another
-The dwarves to return
-Elona to not be so...well...screwed
-Cantha to be more destroyed than it is now! I HATE CANTHA!

Number 1 Rule They don't Teach You in School : Life's not fair! Get used to it!

-Ascalon rebuilt? Ascalon's role is to be blasted and ruined. It's War's realm.
AVE Balthazar!
-Stop not thrusting each others? Since when can human do this with other humans in the first place?
-Dwarves are outdated. One of the few place they look good is D&D and The Lord of the Rings
-Interesting i think it's better in Joko's grasp. Dont misunderstand me, i dont hate Elona. Just love Joko, he's cooler that the Cataclysm undead. Less realistic but funnier
-Just... Don'T... Touch...My... Cantha...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eldin

GW2 is turning a bit too WoWish. We know how this works out...
It's WoW but with THREE factions! :O

I'll give you that.
Only thing I dont like is Mankind's loss of power .

The only thing that bug me is the Madened Spirit saying something about Kormir not being the first one to replace the God of Secret and Abadon originallly starting as God of Truth. (I'll admit he just state (so to speak, he's mad after all) something about Abadon starting like Kormir) Though that could basically state that the gods aren't the first Gods...

Maybe a good thing they keep Kormir's affair for later. By the way, has she already been mentioned anywhere (in GW2 lore) as being the 6th god? (read : outside of Nightfall).

EDIT: About the gods being ascended human. Unless there were "original" gods, it doesn't make sense, ascension is being noticed by the 5 gods (as we know it in Prophecy). They'd have to generalise the lore or make out something else.

Aubis · Oct 05, 2007, 07:54 PM // 19:54

Maybe the super gaints that roam tryia were the first gods or something like that